Has This Ever Happened To You?

by BJ Maxwell - Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:41 pm

Have You Ever Been In A Coffehouse Or Restaurant Talking About Christian Things And Someone Nearby Comments Favourably Or Unfavourably About What You Are Talking About Or Even Gets Involved In The Conversation?

This Has Happened To Me More Than Once.

This I Call Coffeehouse Ministry.

This Is Also What Scripture Calls Sharing Your Faith. (Matt. 28:19)

This I Enjoy More Than Church.

"At most Sunday Morning worship services you are not welcome to raise your hands, interrupting your pastors erudite preachment , and ask for an explanation on one of the great mysteries of the faith, such as the Trinity, the origin of evil, or the tension between God's sovereignty and human free will.

As a matter of fact, the opportunity to ask questions rarely presents itself in many churches  and many important questions simply go unaddressed. Elton Trueblood points to the problem this poses:

'There is little chance of renewal if all that we have is the arrangement by which one speaks and the others listen. One trouble with this conventional system is that the speaker never knows what the unanswered questions are, or what reservations remain in the layman's mentality.'

We have people of faith and people on the fringe of faith with unanswered questions haunting their hearts and minds. Is it possible that the church may be guilty of answering questions that no one is asking? And not answering the real questions many are asking? Could this be why the church has become irrelevant for so many? If the Church is interested in making the message of the Christian faith compelling, it will have to take the time to listen and then begin offering better responses than, 'Because that's the way we've always believed,' or worse, 'You shouldn't even be asking those kind of questions."  (Coffeehouse Theology, JIm Thomas pg. 13)

At the local coffeehouse everyone can participate, ask the questions they really have and say what they really think."

http://maxwellshouse1.tripod.com/id7.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Last_Days_Media/message/2082

Yahoo Group:  Last Days Media http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Last_Days_Media/

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Amen, Bj.  Some of the best Christian conversations I've had has been over coffee!

This is from a Yahoo group that I belonged to called "ChristianityUnderFire". Bj is creating an online Coffee Shop called Maxwell's House :

Online Christian Coffeehouses?

"Technology: How can something as impersonal as technology improve your environment for growth? Hint: you're using it now! The Internet is full of "communities, " support groups, and other resources to help people just like you, people who desire care and encouragement from other Christians.

Increasingly, churches and para-church organizations are launching Internet ministries to reach out to the world, to provide free resources – sermons, study materials, chat rooms, online "christian coffeehouses, " even personal spiritual mentors – to disciple people who will never enter the physical doors of that church.

We live in a time like no other in history, a time when someone in Manila can be mentored by someone in Manhattan on a daily basis for almost no monetary cost to either party. This is a providence that we should not take for granted, nor overlook, if our immediate environment provides no churches, family, friends, or mentors to help us grow.

To find some of the most current resources and Internet communities, search the web using terms like "online discipleship" and "internet-based discipleship, " or see the discipleship / spiritual growth pages of popular Christian portals like

. www.Crosswalk.com  . http://www.crosswalk.com/ ,

. www.gospelcom.net . http://www.christianity.com"

. http://www.assess-yourself.org/environment.htm

. http://BibleStudy.com  . http://Maxwellshouse.org

Bj . Christianity Under Fire

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ChristianityUnderFire/message/3794

Subject: RE: Hello. Concerning Your FreeBibleSoftware Site.

From: "E4 Customer Service" customerservice@e4.net

Date: Thursday, August 14, 2008 1:54 PM

To: lenicheministries@yahoo.com

 http://www.freebiblesoftware.com/

Subject: Hello. Concerning Your FreeBibleSoftware Site.

Date: August 8, 2008

From: "Rev. M. Earhart" lenicheministries@yahoo.com 

To:  customerservice@e4.net

Hello:

I wanted to ask if all was ok with your site.  I noticed that over the past month or so your site has been up and down, and wanted to ask if all was ok.  When your site was up once again recently I was inspired to go and get your email address. 

I have your site advertised on my sites, and have ordered your free software to try - which I liked very much and recommend. 

I wanted to maybe post something on my sites as to what could be occurring, and what possible visitors from my site should know.

I like your site very much, and hope - and will pray - that your difficulties will be resolved soon.  May the Lord make your ways straight in correcting whatever site difficulties you might be experiencing.  I look forward to hearing from you.

NCC Video

.  Waves

http://www.nocussing.com/musicvideos.html

http://www.nocussing.com/home.html

Planned Parenthood Racism Investigation

Planned Parenthood Racism Investigation Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UHeCOeoC_s

Planned Parenthood Racism Investigation Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiGgK3VJYu4&feature=related

Stand True Ministries
http://www.standtrue.com/index2.html

Live Action's The Advocate
http://www.laadvocate.com/

Hello all:

I posted several posts previously about an issue concerning the ACLU and the state of Pennsylvania - the state that I live.

I read about this when I was reading my local newspaper "The Mercury" which was printed in the Saturday February 16th edition - "ACLU sues to 'fix' Pennsylvania marriage law".  (I couldn't find it online.)  http://www.pottsmerc.com/

ACLU Sues To Protect Marriages Threatened By Recent Court Decision  2/14/2008

I hope that the ACLU is successful in changing or redefining the law concerning this in Pennsylvania.  I read that other states issue a license to say a person is legally ok to wed someone - which has my vote. 

If I file for a license, and I'm turned down, at least I was able to at least try.  As it stands now I'm excluded - and so are many others it seems.  Even Chaplains are excluded.

That stinks.  And it stinks that any couple's marriage would be declared null due to this. 

I want to say that it is not the couples fault for this occurring.  It was the officiating clergy person's responsibility to check before doing that.  I was told that by World Christianship Ministries in the information that they sent to me. 

There is an interesting clause in the PA law that you have file for a license to wed yourselves - I think then you can have someone else marry you - If I understood what it says correctly.  It is not at all clear to understand.   If you don't request that you have to have an established member of the clergy marry you.  The state also said that it doesn't decide who qualifies as a church or ministry and who doesn't.  Now how would that disqualify Chaplains?  They are members of an well known and long established ministry.

I just found out I'm considered to be an 'itinerant minister'.

Jesus was kind of like that too - so I might not be too unhappy with being referred to as that. 

I can kind of understand why the state would be so strict in it's policy however.  The law seems to assert that the state wants someone who is a solid member of, or is based in, the community - such as an established church - in order to performing legal ceremonies.

Ministries that ordain online, or by mail, might not be based in the same state or country as a couple being wed in Pennsylvania.  World Christianship Ministries home ministry is in Fresno, California.

The do offer a Confirmation of Communion Certificate (Certificate of Good Standing) which says you are in good standing with WCM, and are connected with a legitimate ministry. 

One problem:  WCM is in California not in Pennsylvania.

I found out that the Certificate would not really help me to my dismay, but I'm reminded that I have to renew because I would still like to remain in good standing with them.  (I don't mind at all giving them credit for the good that they do)

I have had someone referred to me to perform a wedding.  I had to decline, because I had to fully research it as WCM suggested that I do.  I'm glad that I did after reading this article.

I'm going to say prayers that the ACLU is successful in bring about change in the current law.  It could in fact be written in a more clear manner.

I have some eletters to write.  One - when I get the chance - to the ACLU in support of them for once - which is amazing.  I'll then post any correspondence.

I look forward to any feedback.

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On another note. . . I just heard from a friend that she was changing her MSN email address to a different one, because she was having trouble with her MSN.  She was not getting her email like she should.  I'm still having trouble with MSN - and it's the same problem - and can only access my main MSN inbox through Hotmail in order to actually get my email on IE.  I'm not having trouble any trouble with Hotmail.  One problem is that I cannot access my computer stored email - SO I have to try to access it soon with Outlook Express.  I haven't had the chance as of yet to try and do that. 

I kind of feel bad that I might have misjudged McAfee as well.  It's been working really well for me, and almost forget I have it.

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Note - 04.23.09 update:  So I don't have to re-write my opinion - please see my blog link.  I found an article on Dear Abbey that ministers do not have to sign marriage licenses, but can send couples to the courthouse to obtain their signed marriage license.  A minister can perform a 'blessing ceremony'.  This would then create an automatic exemption - then a minister can decide to whether or not to bless a couples union.

Unfortunately it might be inconvenient to the couple to go to two places, but then if a minister wished to 'bless' a union between homosexuals for instance - or wished to have anyone they wanted to to perform a blessing ceremony - they could - or not.

It could also put a financial dent into the wedding industry - which is not entirely a bad thing.

In light of the changing of laws in states allowing homosexuals to 'marry' not signing marriages licenses at all - unless signing all the way around - would create an automatic exemption for ministers who do not wish to involve or condone this, and not being open to discrimination lawsuits.  It could then be evaluated according to each Church's view and standard.

. Marriages Blessed In Church Not Licensed At Courthouse

I look forward to feedback.

ACLU Sues To Protect Marriages Threatened By Recent Court Decision  2/14/2008

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: media@aclu.org; (212) 549-2666

PHILADELPHIA – The American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania filed the first three lawsuits today in a planned statewide challenge of a recent judicial declaration stating that marriages are invalid if presided over by a minister who does not regularly serve a church or preach in a physical house of worship. The ruling potentially endangers thousands of marriages in Pennsylvania.

“What we want is to fix a problem that never should have existed in the first place,” said Mary Catherine Roper, staff attorney with the ACLU of Pennsylvania. “The state has no business invalidating marriages just because it doesn’t like the kind of minister who officiated them.”

The lawsuits were filed on behalf of three couples who were married in Pennsylvania by clergy who do not regularly preach in a church or to an established congregation. The couples seek judicial declarations that their marriages are valid under Pennsylvania law.

ACLU plaintiffs Ryan and Melanie Hancock were married in 2005 by a friend who is an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church. They chose that officiant, in part, because the couple grew up in different religious traditions and did not want to favor one tradition over the other. A copy of their lawsuit can be found online at: http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/Hancockfinalcomplaint.doc

“Our marriage was perfectly legal at the time it was entered into,” Ryan Hancock said. “My wife and I continue to be happily married to this day. For a judge to retroactively decide, nearly three years later, that our marriage is no longer valid seems unfair and is hurtful for both of us.”

The issue arose in September 2007 when York County Judge Maria Musti Cook ruled that the marriage of Dorie Heyer and Jacob Hollerbush was invalid because it had been performed by a minister of the Universal Life Church who obtained his ordination over the Internet. In Heyer v. Hollerbush, the court held that the marriage never existed because the minister who solemnized it did not serve a congregation or preach in a physical house of worship.
 
Since that decision, registers of wills in counties throughout the commonwealth have been telling prospective couples and couples already married that marriages performed by ministers who do not serve a congregation or place of worship are not valid. Bucks County Register of Wills Barbara Reilly has even urged couples to get remarried if their officiant did not regularly serve a congregation.

"It's surprising to see public officials reading the Marriage Act in a way that calls into question the marriages of thousands of husbands and wives throughout the commonwealth,” said Wilson Brown, of Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP, lead counsel for the couples and cooperating counsel with the ACLU.  “We hope these cases will get this straightened out. The commonwealth really should be upholding these people's vows to one another."

ACLU plaintiffs Peter Goldberger and Anna Durbin were married in 1976 in Philadelphia by a Roman Catholic priest, a Jesuit who was then clerking for a judge of the United States District Court. Goldberger and Durbin wanted to have a Catholic wedding in accordance with the wishes of Durbin’s family, but chose to marry in Philadelphia for the convenience of many east coast friends and relatives, instead of in her home parish in the state of Washington. They are both lawyers who reside in Ardmore and have raised three children together. A copy of their lawsuit can be found online at: http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/GoldbergerDurbincomplaint.doc

“It is personally upsetting to us and to our families to be told after more than 30 years that we may not be legally married and that our children are not the product of a valid marriage,” Durbin said. “We can’t see what valid interest the State has in limiting which priests, ministers, imams or rabbis can officiate at weddings,” Goldberger added.

The third set of ACLU plaintiffs, Jason and Jennifer O’Neill, were married in 2005 in Bucks County by Jason’s uncle, who is a Universal Life minister. They chose Jason’s uncle because they wished to have a religious ceremony, but did not want to choose between the different religious traditions of their families. They found the principles of the Universal Life Church reflected their personal beliefs. A copy of their lawsuit can be found online at:
http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/ONeillfinalcomplaint.doc

Article Link:  http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/34120prs20080214.html

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From ACLU site:  http://www.aclu.org/index.html

The right to practice religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The ACLU works to ensure that this essential freedom is protected by keeping the government out of religion. Learn more about how the ACLU works to preserve Freedom of Religion and Belief and take action to protect the rights guaranteed to all Americans.